Comments on: Must the 3 Little Pigs Die? https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:04:41 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Donald Endsley https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8945 Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:04:41 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8945 My Grandfather was a General
My Grandfather was a General Contractor, he used to hire my Dad in the summers. Of course my Dad’s pay was Room and Board for the rest of the year, because as a small GC he couldn’t afford luxuries for things like pay. One other thing to know about my Dad is that he is legally blind, so swinging a hammer is probably not the best idea for him. Never the less that is what my Dad did and of course the inevitable happened, he whacked his thumb. Whacking the thumb with a hammer ruptures the capillary bed under the nails if you do it correctly, which of course my Dad, being the perfectionist he is (at least when it comes to hurting himself) did.

My Grandfather took my Dad to the Osteopath (because in those days DOs were cheaper than MDs). The DO took out a drill with a bit and drill through the nail, relieving the pressure and pain. The DO of course charged something like $20, which caused my Grandfather to complain about it to no end.

From that day on whenever that happened to my Grandfather he drilled his nail himself. This taught my Dad a very valuable lesson: “Don’t tell your Dad when you hit your thumb.” That work though instilled a love of carpentry in my dad that he passed down to me. My Dad taught me the basics, though I can’t tell you the relief I felt when an epiphany struck me when I first started working with professionals. That was “Holy Crap! I don’t have to hit my thumb when I’m driving in a nail!”

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By: Robert Bean https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8944 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 06:39:50 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8944 In reply to Tom.

Re: Tom, “When we
Re: Tom, “When we optimize the whole system, we can do a lot better than a 97% efficient furnace.”

Yes…a whole lot better.

Am loving how this exergy topic is getting digested – good to be an exergist (credit to Doc. Bailes III)

Regards,

RB

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By: Robert Bean https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8942 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 06:35:55 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8942 In reply to Leigha Dickens.

Re: Leigha, “people
Re: Leigha, “people get old and sick in their homes, and that sick people don’t experience thermal comfort the same way healthy people do, I thought was really important.”

Very pleased to hear this resonated with you…it’s a project that is on the top of our priority list. By all means stay in touch and share what you experience and learn in this subject matter. My 2015 Healthy Buildings America slides and paper on this topic are available online if anyone wants them. We also maintain a list of over 450 resources addressing aging and IEQ.

Re: Leigha, “…is not just to reduce fuel consumption point blank, but to conserve fuel by using the type of fuel most appropriate to the task you need energy for.”

The Stanford University resources that Dale suggest are very good for fleshing this out further.

Glad you were in the audience.

Regards,
RB

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By: Tom https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8943 Sat, 15 Aug 2015 11:05:56 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8943 You can burn natural gas in a
You can burn natural gas in a home furnace and get 97% of its energy as heat.

Or you can burn natural gas in a turbine, then use the exhaust gases to make steam and put it through a steam turbine. The electricity from the combined-cycle plant can be used to run heat pumps at a COP of 2 to 3.

But we’re still not done. The remaining steam is still hot enough to run a steam-driven heat pump. The resulting low-temperature steam can be sent into radiators, and eventually it changes phase. The condensate can be used for domestic hot water.

When we optimize the whole system, we can do a lot better than a 97% efficient furnace.

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By: Leigha Dickens https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8941 Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:28:25 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8941 Glad I’m one of your 500 best
Glad I’m one of your 500 best friends Allison.

The point from Bean’s presentation, that people get old and sick in their homes, and that sick people don’t experience thermal comfort the same way healthy people do, I thought was really important. A lot of my clients swear they want to build their own homes and fiddle and geek out with their systems, and yet a lot of my clients want to age in place in their homes too. There are building envelope examples of this too. For the past three years I’ve gone into my grandparents’ crawlspace twice a year to selectively remove or install temporary crawlspace vent covers. Grandaddy doesn’t see the point in wasting money on silly things like a sealed crawlspace or automatic vents and still thinks he’ll be the one to just crawl around real quick and move covers around…

On eXergy: You were right Allison, this is the kind of thing I love! I take the concept of eXergy as a reminder that in the big picture a part of using energy efficiently is not just to reduce fuel consumption point blank, but to conserve fuel by using the type of fuel most appropriate to the task you need energy for. Even if a building needs little combustion to provide heating energy and does that combustion very efficiently, that combustion fuel could still have been used for an industrial process that requires high temperatures and can’t currently get those high temperatures except through combustion, while in many cases there are ways to heat a home other than combustion. Which in turn reminds me to think about peak oil sometimes and the appropriate use of a finite resource, not just the air pollution and climate change that I usually end up focusing on–a subject you’ve written well on in the past! Heh, I wonder how well it will work to break out eXergy when I talk to clients about ditching their beloved gas ranges with 900+ CFM range hoods in favor of induction, since that whole line of arguments about indoor air pollution and backdrafting and installing make-up up air (you know, ADDING complexity) does not seem to deter them…

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By: Robert Bean https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8940 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:47:41 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8940 Thanks for your comments
Thanks for your comments Cameron – was great to meet you.

David’s presentation was awesome! Just when one thinks one knows all there is about duct design he comes along and snaps the ears to attention.

Here’s to putting people at the center of the design process.

Cheers,

RB

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By: Robert Bean https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8939 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:40:22 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8939 Let it be known I’m
Let it be known I’m just an eXergy amateur! I know once Allison gets his head around this (took me 2 to 3 years) he’ll do marvelous things with it…

In the meantime I would encourage those with a ‘burning’ desire to learn about this oh so important way of looking at energy sustainability – study the information below…

See Annex 37 and 49
http://www.iea-ebc.org/projects/completed-projects/

See Annex 59 and 64
http://www.iea-ebc.org/projects/ongoing-projects/

See also
http://www.annex49.info/download/Annex49_HBE.pdf
http://www.cost.eu/module/download/46272

Re: Allison, “ exergy analysis doesn’t really help you when you’re looking at a single building.”
When it becomes clearer you’ll see it especially applies to single buildings [:@) If you’re coming to ASHRAE in Florida drop by our small band of eXergy folks at our T.C.7.4 meetings…

Re: Nate, “…shoot me”
That would be eXergy inefficient…swords would be much better [:@) only ½+ a wethead still need air for decontamination, dehumidification, and deodorization…and yes air based systems are more standardized than hydronics but not immune to repetitive creativity and customization…just on a much smaller scale.

Re: Nate, “ …electrification and the energy can be produced without burning anything”

Yes! Furthermore in many climates with proper architecture and mechanical systems there is no (or little) need for compression or combustion (ref.: Carnegie Mellon Study et al)

Re: Sean, “fuel cell”
Yes…and gas micro CHP units…the challenge is economics – the technology is already proven.

Re: Ted, “world appear insane” and “pills”
Yup…time for a new prescription starting with a “Porky must die” campaign.

eXergyly yours,
RB

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By: Cameron Taylor https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8935 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:27:15 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8935 In reply to Nate Adams.

When I first I heard Ted Kidd
When I first I heard Ted Kidd saying “combustion must die”, my scope of what he meant by that was at first confined to a residence: getting rid of combustion appliances in turn eliminated CAZ concerns. When Ted got excited about electric cars and a road trip in a Tesla Model S, my scope widened to internal combustion engines (ICE).

Robert Bean’s presentation at summer camp widened my scope to include the entire energy generation and distribution infrastructure (aka “grid”). While I had considered it in this fashion before, it was Mr. Bean’s presentation that turned the illumination on it up to 11. I can’t say I have a fantastic grip on the matter of “exergy” as he so eloquently does, but it’s sinking in, with time.

One of Robert’s points during the exergy presentation was “heat exchanger size”. To heat a space of a given size and calculated heat loss, a small heat exchanger must be very hot and a large one not so hot. The incoming energy to create the heat will be more efficiently used if the delta between the input heat source (natural gas, propane, etc.) and the substance being heated (water for hydronic systems) is further apart. Therefore, on an efficiency basis, the large heat exchanger wins.

In the spirit of killing the three little pigs of combustion, customization, and complexity, I like your heat pump statement. In my climate (Climate Zone 3) it’s a home run with a good thermal enclosure, properly sized and installed ducts, and proper air distribution room to room. My instinct when it comes to residential building science is to move the proportion of comfort management as far over to the envelope side of the equation as practically possible, with the mechanical systems filling the remaining percent.

Robert’s emphasis on understanding mean radiant temperature, along with humidity, air speed, and temperature control, for me binds together many things we discuss about building performance.

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By: Cameron Taylor https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8938 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 20:44:54 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8938 In reply to Ted Kidd.

@Tedd Kidd:
@Tedd Kidd:

I think I was born with the contents of the blue pill already in my system, as how many things are done in this world, on an accepted basis, strike me as insane.

Hearing Robert speak at summer camp was the highlight of the daily speaker series for me, along with befriending and hearing David Hill speak on moving air quietly.

Robert has the right focus, as Allison addressed above: human comfort is why we build buildings and fill them with complex systems. How we design and operate buildings is where the heart of the energy/exergy discussion resides.

My takeaway from the exergy presentation is that heat equates to energy, and heat wasted is energy wasted. If it takes 3400°F of heat to create energy in order to maintain my home at 70°F when it is 20°F outdoors, where is the 3,330 degrees going?

Robert’s first presentation of the day was on HVAC in the real world. If ever there was a “blue pill” held forth for one to consume, that presentation was it. Once digested, the way we build and operate buildings and mechanical systems often is insane. Especially in my spot on the planet.

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By: Ted Kidd https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/must-the-3-little-pigs-die/#comment-8937 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:17:49 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=must-the-3-little-pigs-die#comment-8937 Red pill or blue pill?
Red pill or blue pill?

Once you go Bean, there is no turning back. And the thought shift makes the rest of the world appear insane.

Very excited you’ve taken the blue pill Allison.

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