Comments on: When Is a High-Efficiency Furnace Not? https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:34:43 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Ian McTeer https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10405 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 05:03:12 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10405 In reply to Steve Waclo.

The furnace manufacturer says
The furnace manufacturer says my furnace will deliver the advertised efficiency when you, the designer/installer, provide it with a proper distribution system. The furnace has a rating plate that clearly states the maximum external static pressure the furnace or air handler can work against and still deliver the goods. Once you exceed the parameter, which is 0.5″ w.c. total external static pressure, then bad things start happening. It’s like a car manufacturer says his car works properly on quality paved roads. Take it off road or haul heavy loads beyond its rated capacity, then, once again, bad things start happening. Heating contractors have to make sure the road (duct system) is as good as it can be.

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By: Peter Kidd https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10404 Thu, 20 Apr 2017 01:31:53 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10404 Just a little added
Just a little added complication, the energy (electricity) going into the motor doesn’t just vanish but is converted into heat and kinetic energy (eventually heat), in the air stream. It’s not a benefit when cooling, and may be more expensive heat when heating, but where I live that heat is a useful contribution for a healthy chunk of the year.

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By: humid customer https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10403 Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:56:14 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10403 Dear Alison,
Dear Alison,
I was reading your article title “How to tell if you have an oversized unit”. I think i may have an oversized unit. I doesn’t run more than 6 minutes. But on a warm day like today’s it runs after ever 20 minutes or so. But my main problem is humidity. Here are some of the stats i took today. If you can please look over the stats and let me know if something stands out as obvious or possible culprit for the humidity issue in my home:
Outside Temp 80F with 62% humidity (although i am running a 70 pint dehumidifier in the living room which pumps out hot air – away from the bedroom where the reading is taken. Therefore its more like emulating 95+ outside temp. My house is 1850 square foot single storie, with a 4 ton unit), AC set to hold at 77F
All data recorded via off the shelf thermometer from home depot. readings taken while sitting the thermometer on the Bed’s footboard
Time Room Humidity Room Temp
0:00 54 75
Moved the Thermometer to Inside of the supply duct using duct tape. (removed the grill and used the tape to hold the thermometer where the grill would be)
0:40 51 73
1:17 50 73
1:27 52 72
2:33 52 70
2:41 53 70
3:09 54 68
3:28 55 68
3:55 55 66
4:10 56 66
4:25 61 66
4:41 71 64
noted: vent is no longer blowing out cold air @ 4:41
5:00 77 64
5:09 81 64
5:40 86 64
noted: AC cycled off @ 5:40

Wouldn’t mold grow in the ducts if the humidity reaches 86%?

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By: David Butler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10402 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:10:56 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10402 @Mark, non-variable ECM has
@Mark, non-variable ECM has the same efficiency as variable speed (the motor itself may indeed be identical), but at a much lower cost. Some VS blowers eek out a few percentage points improvement through operational profiles (e.g., stepped ramp-up) but these differences are small and are not captured in either the official ratings or blower tables. Your point about static is spot on. In fact, many contractors (ab)use variable speed blowers (specifically models with constant CFM feature) to ensure correct airflow, but then they build a crappy duct system that pushes the blower to the top of its power curve. Sigh.

To Blake’s point, it’s important to look at motor efficiency as opposed to motor watts. For example, if you replace a PSC that’s operating at 60% of design airflow with an ECM, a good contractor will take the opportunity to fix the airflow, so blower watts may still go up. If the duct system is undersized or a leaky duct system is sealed without enlarging it, an ECM may get pushed further up its power curve than you’d like. But on a CFM-per-watt basis, it’s still more efficient than a PSC.

Steve asks why furnace ratings don’t appropriately reflect blower energy… Blower energy has always been the unwanted stepchild of equipment rating procedures. For example, SEER and HSPF ratings for air conditioners are not necessarily based on tests with the matched blower. Most ratings are modeled (simulated) from baseline tests. in that case, the blower energy component (for SEER & HSPF ratings) only varies depending on whether the blower is PSC or ECM. Also, baseline tests upon which these simulated ratings are based do not have to be conducted at a particular airflow (although the tested airflow must now be disclosed on the ratings).

This situation evolved from a time when blower energy was much less consequential to system energy consumption. Clearly that’s no longer true, as source equipment efficiency improvements have far outpaced blower efficiency. AHRI rating procedures are specified by the DOE and thus are subject to public comment. There’s naturally going to be resistance (from manufacturers) to any change that would require more actual testing and/or make their products look worse.

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By: Blake Shurtz https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10401 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 21:16:51 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10401 I appreciate David’s point
I appreciate David’s point about ECM efficiency AT A GIVEN CFM AND TESP. This is what HVAC balance points are all about. Many homeowners may be shocked to see their cost of fan operation (and thus electricity bills) go up when they replace their tired-out PSC. The HVAC contractor didn’t make any bogus claims- they just forgot to test/optimize the watt-draw.

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By: David Butler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10400 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 20:53:17 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10400 @Terje, I believe you’re
@Terje, I believe you’re referring to the inducer motor. That’s really small potatoes compared to the blower. But standby power is definitely an issue for unitary equipment. That, plus crankcase heaters for heat pumps can easily add hundreds of kWh’s annually to overall consumption. Unfortunately there’s no good way to incorporate these loads into a model other than by empirical measurement, as Mike is advocating.

@Mike, all good points. I’ve definitely seen bogus data in the tables based on field measurement. But excepting outright errors, I find that blower watts is usually within 10 or 15 percent. And as I’m sure you know, and to Treje’s point, it’s important to understand that blower table (watts) doesn’t purport to include power consumed by thermostats, transformers, relays or solenoids (or the inducer fan).

In any case, as a 3rd party designer and specifier, I’m often limited by what the contractor sells, in which case I may not have the luxury of empirical data. My point was simply that manufacturer blower tables are much better than the (ARHI) electrical consumption data included in RightSuite.

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By: Mark Johnson https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10399 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 19:00:11 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10399 Well heck. I know for a
Well heck. I know for a variable speed blower, it can be the most efficient. But its power depends on the static pressure it must work against… the duct system and chosen airflow is a key factor. What static pressure did you use for your model?

Thank you.

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By: Steve Waclo https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10398 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:37:08 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10398 At the risk of broadcasting
At the risk of broadcasting my ignorance, which frankly, has never stopped me in the past, can someone provide a short answer to why the important aspects of overall furnace efficiency Allison raises are not an elemental part of furnace certification?

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By: Mike MacFarland https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10397 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 13:45:11 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10397 Excellent point David.
Excellent point David.

These are good baby steps in the initial learning curve about system selection. One of the problems though is that manufacturers lie and make up stuff.

The game changer is when technicians gather and analyze actual system performance data from their installations ad discover what systems actually perform best. And when they find they can’t deliver as much efficiency into the home as they want (like aiming for an A in distribution system efficiency and getting a C), things are learned like the furnace penalty of higher temperature air and resulting larger Btuh losses within the distribution system than lower delta systems (Heat pumps, low flow hydronics for example), or the penalty of lower CFM airflow and corresponding lower fan Watts (higher distribution losses due to longer transit time to destination).

Good designers comb literature and modeling programs. Great ones measure and base their decisions on actual equipment performance.

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By: Terje Gronas https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/when-high-efficiency-furnace-not/#comment-10396 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 13:17:27 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=when-is-a-high-efficiency-furnace-not#comment-10396 There are 2 motors in a HE
There are 2 motors in a HE furnace is there not? And how about standby power? In the world of power adapters, they have to meet a limit of 0.1W max standby power, but for HVAC equipment I hardly ever see standby discussed.

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