Comments on: Why Won’t the HVAC Industry Do Things Right?

By: Dan Ellerbe

Dan Ellerbe — Sat, 29 Dec 2012 03:20:14 +0000

I worked in the HVAC industry
I worked in the HVAC industry for only about five years. After my first year the NATE (North American Technician Excellance) program was initiated and backed by many of the equipment manufacturers. My company was a fairly large residential/light commercial company holding both the Trane & Lennox delear brands as well as cheaper equipment. As I recall, our Trane technical rep saying in a class full of local techs- "Trane fully supports the implementation of the NATE certification for 2 year experienced service technicians, and anyone who passes the initial service "Heat Pump" certification should be given a 5 dollar raise!". Boy I thought I was in for a hard test- It was quite hard and very technically oriented. Out of the four service techs in our company that took the exam, I was the only one who passed. None of our senior techs passed. Needless to say I didnt get a raise. If I remember correctly, the three techs that took the exam failed the next following tests and passed only after they were given the tests at our company offices where they could help each other with the answers.
I am a senior Instrumentation & Electronics tech with 13 years in the offshore Oil & Gas industry now making exactly 4.5 times more yearly gross income than I ever made in the HVAC industry, with vacation, retirement, bonuses, etc,...
I do my own HVAC work in the small rural community where I live in Louisiana when Im not in the Gulf. The money is just not there to attract proficient technical people to that industry. Its hard for a major Oil & Gas company to find those individuals for their industry also.
I wish there was an answer. I just dont think you will find it in our consumer driven society...

By: David Butler

David Butler — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:07:02 +0000

@Terry: That particular
@Terry: That particular citation from Manual D is from the section on balancing dampers. The point being made is that supply diffusers should not be used for system balancing.

In the same section Manual D stipulates that balancing dampers should be installed as close to the trunk and as far from supply outlets as possible. Grilles and diffusers are covered in Manual T.

The bigger question is why your contractor didn't install proper balancing dampers. Of course, he's in good company as very few residential contractors install balancing dampers, let alone actually balance the duct system. Why you ask? Because one requires them to do so. After all, how many code officials have a clue about the various requirements in Manual D.

By: Terry Mishler

Terry Mishler — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:52:52 +0000

I have the following Amana
I have the following Amana equipment.

AMV9/ACV9 TWO-STAGE VARIABLE SPEED GAS-FIRED WARM AIR FURNACE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS.

XIII. CIRCULATING AIR & FILTERSDUCTWORK - AIR FLOW Page 26
Duct systems and register sizes must be properly designed for the CFM and external static pressure rating of the furnace. Design the ductwork in accordance with the recommended methods of “Air Conditioning Contractors of America” Manual D.

2009 Manual D Residential Duct Systems on page 32 has the following.
"Single blade dampers at outlets and returns are inadquate balancing devices. Use opposed blade dampers that have a gang of blades"

Can someone please explaine why our installer who is an Amana dealer would not follow code?
He only installed single blade dampers.

Why are opposed blade dampers having a gang of blades the choice of Amana and Manual D?

Terry Mishler

By: Joe Marchione

Joe Marchione — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 05:45:12 +0000

I have to agree will most of
I have to agree will most of the comments here. I know that I have been in Robert Graff's position a few times.

I think the real problem is "perceived value". People don't really mind spending more money for something if they feel that they are getting what they pay for. But for right now, at least, they don't "see" any value to spending a few extra thousand dollars to have it done right. They know that their neighbor had a new system put in for 10k, why should they spend 12k when they have the same size house? And the neighbor has not had any problems (that they know of).

The difficulty in out trade is that the poor duct work takes 3 to 4 years to kill that compressor. But by then it is too late. Then they have to run on electric back up heat for a week at 10°F outside temperature until we can get the new compressor in. So how much did they save? Probably nothing. But they can not see the value up front.

Our main issue is to get the government out of the equation with their SEER nonsense and other ratings and get some real science in the industry that will show (explain) to the customer the REAL value of spending that extra 2k to have it done right.

As a contractor, I would love to be able to offer a customer who allows me to do a proper, by the book install a 10 year parts a labor warrantee to show the value of having it done right.

I think that until we can make that kind of bold statement and offering to customers they will not "see" the difference between the 10k install and the 12k install. They will look at the name brand on the equipment.

But the name brand on the equipment is another hurdle for us as technicians to get over. The manufacturers have much more power to influence the customer buying habits then us contractors. So they are not working for us but against us. The customer's attention is on the label, not the installer. And we all know which is the most important.

By: Robert Garry Graff III

Robert Garry Graff III — Sat, 05 Mar 2011 02:40:40 +0000

I could not agree more. I
I could not agree more. I will be 32 this summer. I have worked in HVACR installations and service since I was 15. I have always loved to make things with my hands and take pride in being meticulous to a fault. Yesterday my current boss told me my production speed wasn’t up to par with some of the other crews. Well to start off I’m not a crew I am one man. They actually have helpers usually or they don’t take their time and their works suffers or in my opinion from what I have seen it does. I just believe in quality. I am sick of hearing I can’t see it from my house or that should be good enough. I have spent more than half my life damaging my body to make the homes of others as comfortable and healthy as I can. I offer this advice to anyone purchasing anything from a HVACR contractor. Your home comfort system can be a large and complicated task to plan design and actually build and install we have the biggest pipe and the least amount of space to run it and more and more codes governing how it should be done. Don’t let a salesman blind you. Do some research and go in to a decision informed. Be firm about quality and if they don’t like that you don’t want them. Try to see the quality of work they do. Try and meet the installers before hand with the salesman so someone who knows what they are looking at has a hand in the plan for your home. Salesmen usually have no clue what it actually takes to do the job some do but more don’t. Pay close attention to his hands if they look like he has never been cut by a piece of sheet metal don’t be surprised when the installer has to change his design to match the situation. And I know how hard it is to see your hard earned money go down the drain so don’t think the cheapest bid is the best to accept I’m sure they are the cheapest for more than one reason. I would like to add that I more than understand the position of my boss. With what he told me he is simply having a hard time affording me as a lead man because of the amount of time the jobs have taken although there are so many aspects of the jobs and they way the company is run and the way materials are managed and how long you have to wait to get them when you find out you need them. All THINGS AND FACTORS PLAY A PART IN SUCH A PRODUCTION.

By: Dan Benner

Dan Benner — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 04:29:28 +0000

When you get down to it, the
When you get down to it, the home owners or builders are looking to get the job done for the least amount possible. I've seen people give the job to the contractor that was less 5% cheaper. I hear questions about this brand or that one. They don't know what questions to ask or that paying more upfront for proper equipment sizing and duct design will pay them back three fold and offer them more comfort. The only thing the consumers seem to know is the PRICE. Builders know this.
I bid a job for a builder. Selling myself cheap and still getting laughed at. It was a condo job and I was bidding on the rear unit. Walked through the front unit as I left and understood the quality I was selling wasn't what he was looking for. Slap some flex duct in, drywall the duct chases shut and put a note in the real estate listing High Efficiency Heating an Air Conditioning. Until that changes the hacks and cut throats will run the residential market.

By: David Butler

David Butler — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:19:09 +0000

@Amy wrote:
@Amy wrote:
> The pervasive attitude that the HVAC installer industry doesn't know what it's doing is both incorrect and making the problem worse...

I don't disagree with this, but not because it's not true. You said yourself that "half would like to do more". What about the other half? That's pretty much a broken industry in my book.

But I totally agree with you about fostering an attitude of partnership. This requires that HERS raters become *much* more proficient at HVAC, but without pretending to be HVAC designers.

By: David Butler

David Butler — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:07:23 +0000
Danny is one of the sharpest
Danny is one of the sharpest HERS/HVAC guys I know, but think his example overstates the point. No one would argue that it should take 40+ hrs of design/verify time to get good HVAC. In any case, 3rd party design/verify is always going to cost more.

I believe an additional 8-12 hours of design and QA time done in-house would go a LONG way to resolve the types of problems we're seeing. On a $10k to $15k system, builders would accept a 10% premium if they understood the value it would bring. Custom builders often pay far more than that on high SEER equipment that is ultimately wasted on a poorly designed/installed duct system. The problem is, the HVAC dealers who do good design work only want to sell cadillac equipment (best case, the value of anything over 15 SEER is marginal at best).

Regarding raters checking loads... I argued in a long editorial in Nov 06 Home Energy that ES put the cart before the horse by requiring HERS raters to check loads without proper training. The folks who added that well-intended requirement apparently had no clue what this involved. A short on-line training on this should be developed and made mandatory.

By: Andrew J. Courts, Jr.

Andrew J. Courts, Jr. — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:16:18 +0000
All comments have contained a
All comments have contained a lot of truth. Five thoughts for what they are worth:

*For too long, many Rating firms passed every house with fifteen minute insulation inspections and a little show with the blower door and duct blast. (How'd we do?) This has given many builders an unrealistic view of building science and the ease in acquiring the Rating. We need to cull these Raters.

* Legacy HVAC firms are likely to slowly fail as mechanical engineers enter the field with more knowledge, stricter adherence to and understanding of building science. Code requirements and stricter enforcement will accelerate this pace.

*When builders start to build, it will not take very long for recent gains in HERS Ratings to fall precipitously as the expense and of proper adherence of V3 HVAC standards become apparent. Their HVAC contractor will buck the changes for as long as possible and the builders will follow the path of least resistance and of least expense.

*Surprisingly, the future of V3 Rating may lie with the production builders who can more easily roll procedures into their business model, use dedicated crews, build the same models repeatedly and have recently expressed a declaration to become 100% Partners.

*It is up to the industry to police our own and to constantly train ourselves, our builders, the HVAC contractors and anyone who wants to hear about the importance of building science.

By: Gary Smith

Gary Smith — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:09:38 +0000
BUILDER VIEWPOINT
BUILDER VIEWPOINT

Danny, that sounds like a commercial approach to a residential install?

...or...

Should there be a difference in the two building types (with reference to installation)?

As a home builder for many many years and now an energy rater/energy use proponent I remember the chatter I received when in conversation with my HVAC contractors. I would ask them to give me a "more professional approach", shall we say.

"This ain't no commercial job, Gary. I can't do all that work for the money you're willing to pay".

There is a separation between the to types of work in the market place. One has a higher standard than the other. Are we "asking" the builder (ultimately the buyer) to pay more? or ... are we realizing that for all these years the buyer has been sold "poor quality" and we're now beginning to bring the two closer in line with one another (you all do realize there are two "worlds" in construction? right? - - Commercial World View and Residential World View)