Comments on: How Well Do You Understand Psychrometrics? https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Wed, 10 Jan 2024 01:05:26 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Tyler Keniston https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-36717 Wed, 10 Jan 2024 01:05:26 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-36717 In reply to Christopher Wilkins.

I believe you are incorrect, unless I’m misunderstanding your point. Air can indeed be ‘supersaturated’ in which vapor pressure is higher than saturation. RH greater than 100% is definitely possible.

Supersaturation is not prolonged, but for cloud formation, supersaturation must be greater than 0.

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By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34449 Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:41:11 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34449 In reply to JayW.

Yep

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By: JayW https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34433 Sun, 27 Aug 2023 00:36:11 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34433 In reply to RoyC.

See you saying that air at the same temperature that is more humid is lighter?

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By: Mike McKenna https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34387 Thu, 24 Aug 2023 14:13:57 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34387 In reply to Sam S.

I also approached the question this way. The change in relative humidity within the space would depend on whether the dewpoint inside is higher or lower than the dewpoint outside. From a humidity control standpoint, a rainy day at 60F will result in a very muggy interior because the there is enough infiltration to meet the sensible load but the rh could be 70% or more. It all depends on what counts as “cold” for a rainy day.

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By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34363 Wed, 23 Aug 2023 17:47:23 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34363 In reply to Allison Bailes.

Since no one was willing to take a stab at this question, I will give the answer. Humid air is less dense than dry air. The difference isn’t a lot, but most people I know think that humid air is “heavier”.

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By: Christopher Wilkins https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34358 Tue, 22 Aug 2023 13:00:09 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34358 Great article and good questions although I do have a quarrel with a couple of them. On #7, the definition of relative humidity is based on the ratio of actual vapor pressure to vapor pressure at saturation. The actual vapor pressure cannot be >saturation. You can have a 2-phase situation, which is what you have when there is fog, but the vapor pressure cannot be > saturation so relative humidity cannot be >100%. There is an analogy with Steam flow. You can have 2-phase steam flow but the pressure is still saturation pressure. The presence of liquid does not increase the “vapor” pressure. The vapor is still at saturation. The saturated vapor just happens to be mixed with some liquid. I get the point you are trying to make, that you can have more moisture than saturation level, but the vapor itself will be saturated.

My other comment is a nit pick. The question was if I had experienced conditions greater than 100F/90%. My answer was yes, it was in a sauna in Finland, not an ambient condition, but I have experienced it.

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By: Adam Stetten https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34351 Mon, 21 Aug 2023 22:02:00 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34351 In reply to JayW.

Hey Jay,
100% of the information is from DPCALC.org and there is an older version with more columns and all of those figures also come from the same place. Their formulas are really useful but not when you are presented with the whole spectrum versus the relavant sections only, and also “MY CHART” had to have some rounding out of necessity and as simple as it is people refuse to read the accompanying write-up. The main benefit of both of “MY CHARTS” is the limited temperature range, and the explanations at the bottom. Lots of people who store baseball cards, books, boxes, library systems ACTUALLY USE THIS CHART. You might never find the standard charts in use by anyone other than the author of an article about how tricky it is.

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By: JayW https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34342 Mon, 21 Aug 2023 13:54:51 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34342 In reply to Adam Stetten.

Adam

That is an interesting chart in the link you shared. Do you know the source of this data?

Interesting argument for possibly not needing dehumidification in a well sealed crawl space. I wouldn’t want to get too close to the point where there is a possibility of a mold issue.

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By: JayW https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34340 Mon, 21 Aug 2023 13:42:28 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34340 In reply to RoyC.

RoyC

Agreed that the two lines for Wet Bulb and Enthalpy are almost parallel and thus wouldn’t work for defining a point. If nothing else, a little inaccuracy in one or both would throw the point way off.

As I recall if you have any other two properties of a moist air condition you can use them to find the exact point on the psych. chart.

This would include specific humidity, enthalpy, DB Temp, WB Temp, RH, DP Temp.

Actually for the above besides enthalpy and WB, you also can’t use specific humidity and DP temp together. Specific humidity and DP Temp lies are actually parallel.

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By: Adam Stetten https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-well-do-you-understand-psychrometrics/#comment-34332 Sun, 20 Aug 2023 12:34:55 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=8484#comment-34332 This 9-variable topic is broken, no new charts* since this horrible psychrometric one came out. This article about the confusion, proves the need for a new way to simplify & organize air-wetness information for use by consumers. Nobody needs to be familiar with the chart shown because they should only care about what goes on between the coolest space they control and the warmest space they control, or between say 60°F and 85°F.

This is the number one google result on Earth if you search “ Mold Chart”: https://energyhandyman.com/knowledge-library/mold-chart-for-temperature-and-humidity-monitors/

The purpose, is for use with standard temp and RH sensors, and to help people not to open their windows maybe. The phrase “Mold Chart for Temperature and Relative Humidity Sensors” or something similar is searched on Google millions of times a month by people who have already found the chart provided in this article.

Stay unconfused my friends.

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