https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Fri, 07 Sep 2012 01:21:52 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4628 Fri, 07 Sep 2012 01:21:52 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4628 JShouts:
JShouts: This article is about ozone depletion, not global warming. The complexities and subtleties of science require clear thinking, and that starts with understanding the problem at hand. If you want to argue about global warming, you’re commenting in the wrong article.

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4627 Fri, 07 Sep 2012 00:17:19 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4627 If you realize on 3 percent
If you realize on 3 percent of all carbon dioxide is put into the atmosphere by humans, I can’t imagine how little impact this would have on the total gasses in the atmosphere. 
 
There is a lot more carbon dioxide put into the atmosphere by humans, with all their activity, and it only amounts to 3 percent of all carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. But we’re the problem? Dead plants put in much more than all human activity in total. Again, compared to that, the amount of R22 in the atmosphere would be negligible, compared to all gasses put into the atmosphere.

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4626 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 19:15:54 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4626 Sean: Yes,
Sean: Yes, I did read the comment, and as you can tell from the comment I left in your blog post two years ago, I read that, too, both with an open mind. Or at least I tried to, but I guess that’s a bit hard to do when I run into a statement like the following: 
 
Global Warming caused by humans is nothing but a huge shell game using items like GWP with a 50% error rate on the formulas to start with, falsifying numbers, temperature sensors now located in the middle of cities, etc…  
 
That reads like it came straight out of the Frank Luntz playbook, Sean, and sounds like something that someone who doesn’t have an open mind might say. Sure, scientists aren’t as good at getting the message out as those who want to create confusion with the goal of delaying action, and that leads people to write and say things like you wrote above.  
 
But we’re getting ahead of ourselves here. This article is about ozone depletion, which we seem to agree on. Let’s save the global warming debate for my future posts on that topic. And by the way, I’m fully aware of the complexities of that debate. I don’t know why you would jump to the conclusion that I think it’s ‘easy.’  
 
Oh, just one more thing — putting the word ‘theories’ in quotes makes you look anti-science, which I don’t believe you are. A theory, in the scientific hierarchy is actually an idea that’s well established with a lot of data to back it up. Perhaps you meant to use the word ‘hypotheses.’

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4625 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:47:28 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4625 “A huge shell game?
“A huge shell game? Really? Of course, you’re free to believe what you want. That doesn’t change the science, which grows stronger every year…” 
 
Seriously, I got to ask if you even read the comment (much less the link) with a slightly open mind, much less understood what was said, or did you just see “denier”? 
 
As I said science was right about ozone, and numerous other things like acid rain, gravity, etc… but that does not automatically make all their “theories” correct. This is especially true when many are not being real scientists looking for the facts but rather pushing a social agenda & many get derided for pointing out issues or rocking the boat.  
 
Good luck with your post on GW, though I am sure you might just find out that it isn’t as easy as you may think it is

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4624 Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:11:36 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4624 Pj: Well,
Pj: Well, I like a good fight. So far, I’ve been surprised to find that the HVAC community has been pretty silent on this issue, though.  
 
John P.: True! So are you with Bruce Manclark on this and promoting ductless mini-splits for everything?

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4623 Tue, 04 Sep 2012 18:03:21 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4623 Allison. We agree that
Allison. We agree that buildings should get better. One advantage of working on an AC is that all that energy goes through one place == the AC. The gains and losses in the building are diffuse. The duct system issue is a slam dunk. Don’t use ducts.

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4622 Tue, 04 Sep 2012 16:41:32 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4622 Hi Alison, 

Hi Alison, 
 
Interesting posts. 
 
There are lots of “Flat Earth” folks in HVAC, you will 
Get quite a fight on this one. 
 
For a real challenge, try de-bunking the myth that you can “Calculate” an accurate load on an old house by adding guesses in your computer.  
 
This business is not full of rocket scientists, we prefer not to have our beliefs challenged by facts. 
 
Pj  
 

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4621 Tue, 04 Sep 2012 16:23:21 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4621 Harris W.:
Harris W.: It seems I touched a nerve there. It’s certainly a big, important issue worthy of strong feelings. I love the Teddy Roosevelt quote! 
 
John P.: In my view, it doesn’t do us a whole lot of good to make further improvements in air conditioner efficiency when we’re currently throwing away so much of the efficiency of the systems we already have. I’m referring to the crappy distribution systems we attach our efficient air conditioners to and the the crappy building envelopes we put them in. Those are easy gains. I do agree that we need to keep working on increasing the efficiency of the units themselves, too, though. 
 
Ira: I doubt we’re ever going back to R-12, containment or no. 
 
Don G.: I doubt that my grandfather, as a contractor, put 300,000 lbs of freon into the atmosphere, but I’m sure it was a lot. The good news is that we don’t do that anymore. 
 
Sean: A huge shell game? Really? Of course, you’re free to believe what you want. That doesn’t change the science, which grows stronger every year. 
 
Stay tuned. I’ve avoided discussing global warming up to now, but I’ll be writing about that soon.  
 

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4620 Tue, 04 Sep 2012 16:06:27 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4620 Nice piece Allison but as for
Nice piece Allison but as for science & obfuscation lets get serious 
 
 
 
Ozone depletion was easy to diagnose & prove the cause 
 
 
 
Global Warming caused by humans is nothing but a huge shell game using items like GWP with a 50% error rate on the formulas to start with, falsifying numbers, temperature sensors now located in the middle of cities, etc… http://blog.sls-construction.com/2010/sustainability-green-building-and-you 
 
 
 
Tobacco smoke – yes it is bad for you, but for 2nd & 3rd hand being just as dangerous & with an increasing number of illness while the levels of smokers has declined is laughable at best. Maybe they ought to have these peoples houses tested for Radon

]]> https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant/#comment-4619 Mon, 03 Sep 2012 23:55:06 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=the-science-behind-the-phase-out-of-r-22-air-conditioner-refrigerant#comment-4619 R12 has very high efficiency.
R12 has very high efficiency. R11 used in centrifugal water chillers from 200 – 1000 tons had the highest efficiency of any refrigerant. So in my textile air conditioning days I am probably responsible for indirectly putting about 300,000 lbs of R11 into the atmosphere assuming that none of the refrigerant was reclaimed. We did a good job of containing it but by 1990 almost 80% or the R11 consumption was being used to expand foam insulation and for cleaning circuit boards. Once a manufacturer has a product they will sell it for any use!

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