Comments on: A Strange Silence on Dry-Ship R-22 Air Conditioners

By: Brett C

Brett C — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:46:02 +0000

Even 2 years after this was
Even 2 years after this was published, I received a quote yesterday to install a brand new R-22 Goodman system on my house which has never had central air. I was surprised when I received the quote because the price was in line with what I expected, but I had no idea a dealer would spec an R-22 system with a 5 year warranty (vs 10 with R-410a). I talked to him on the phone and he should have realized that I have a clue about what's going on but no discussion of refrigerant type happened because I didn't think it was necessary. After I received the quote, I emailed the guy back saying I didn't want an R-22 system so we'll see what he comes back with for R-410a pricing. The positive about this dealer was that he said 2 tons would be too much for my well insulated 1000 sq. foot ranch while two other companies spec'd 2 ton R-410a systems without a second thought. (I'm going to be doing a manual J myself with HVAC Calc to confirm that 2 tons is too much.)

Either way, it's amazing that the loophole still exists. I wonder if they'll be selling dry R-22 equipment until 2020?

By: Dave M

Dave M — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 10:16:24 +0000

I live in a multi-story condo
I live in a multi-story condo building where the heat pump for each unit is on the flat roof, and the refrigerant lines run down through the roof inside the interior walls of the building. The lines are soldered rather than brazed, which is fine for R-22, but often results in refrigerant leaks or complete blowouts if the old lines are flushed and re-used with R410A at the much higher pressures that 410A requires. Running new, brazed refrigerant lines in a building like this would be a costly, destructive, chaotic nightmare, especially since every owner owns and is responsible for their own HVAC system. Dry R-22 units are a must for buildings like this, and there are already ozone-safe drop-in replacement refrigerants that can be used in R-22 equipment after the supply of R-22 is finally gone.

By: Shane

Shane — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 22:58:45 +0000

These dry units are great.
These dry units are great. People must under stand that there are other refrigerants to use that replace r22 and are as affordable as the 410a. These units provide options . Lets say some one has a newer r22 system thats just out side of warranty and it lost the compresser. The customer had limited funds to work with . Instead of selling him a compressor for 1700 and only has a year warranty . You sell them a condenser for the same price and they get a five year warranty . Most manufactures offer five year compresser and parts warranties if they are name brand. Besides r22 and replacement refrigerants will be around well past 2020.

By: JR

JR — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 07:29:04 +0000

This is quickly becoming a
This is quickly becoming a non-issue. With R22 gas at $500 for a 30# jug the cost to fill a dry unit just went way up and so did servicing that leaking old R22 unit. Customers are the ones getting stuck. Even a compressor changeout on an R22 system under warranty is killing the customer who still has to pay for labor and the Freon! Many systems take 7 to 10 pounds of R22. At a competitive rate of $90 per pound for R22 vs. $55 for 410 it can push someone over to a new system faster than you think.

All that said...I do feel terrible for people that cannot afford new systems or will not see value in a new system (many Elderly customers) have to take it on the chin. All of us in the HVAC business are getting a black eye over this crazy R22 Freon pricing!

More rules and regulation will not help the global enviroment and all it does is hurt those that can't afford to "swap over". Many of your post are so one sided it makes me sick. You sound as though the price of a $1200 condenser or a $5000 changeout is like saying Burger King or Outback!

Some people do not HAVE a choice. Some are like our government in that they never saved for a new roof or new HVAC system. They do not have the money so they have to finance it or go without.

By: Tom Vesely

Tom Vesely — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:53:39 +0000

Most of these posts, if not
Most of these posts, if not all, refer to a residential market. A homeowner upgrading now would be a fool to attach a dry-shipped R-22 condenser to his existing airhandler if the original system is out of warranty. A compressor or other major component change would be the only R-22 choice.
However, in commercial and institutional environments, with split sytems from 7.5 tons and up connected by 200+ foot linesets, switching to R-410A is not possible without major structural renovations. I have 7.5, up to 60 ton dx coil air handling stations that are built into the building. I'm not going to go as far as to say changeout is impossible, but nearly so, especially with the interconnecting lineset which MUST be changed no matter who tells you it doesn't. I install various combinations of Goodman 460 vol, 3 phase, 7.5 to 10 ton straight cool, or heatpump condensers directly to the existing lineset and air handling units. One BIG difference-NO R-22 is used following the installation. I convert these to one of the inexpensive R-22 "drop-in" replacements. Currently I use MO-99 (R-438A)which has very near the same operating caracteristics as R-22, and requires only a liquid drier change, something only a careless technician would not do anyway. I only pray these dry-shipped R-22 units continue to be available. I have heard the residential sized units, under 5 tons will be phased out. From reading these various tech inputs,I know the concern is legitimate when discussing residential equipment. But please consider the enormous impact a loss of R-22 equipment will mean to commercial buildings, schools, universities and manufacturing plants. Let's support Goodman in their effort, not to circumvent the law, but to provide a viable alternative to costly conversions.
One last reminder: Use R-22 to top off systems only! This will help preserve supply for a few more years. Switch to a "drop-in" replacement such as MO-99 whenever repairs require evacuation of R-22. And no, I am not on the Dupont staff.

By: www.alaskanquality.com/blog

www.alaskanquality.com/blog — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 15:51:07 +0000

Allison thank you for opening
Allison thank you for opening the horizon of many individuals and for allowing us to share our own insights about R-22! The environment owed you a lot for showing others the importance of choosing the proper air conditioner. R-22 is good in terms of its price according to my neighbors but they cannot see that it is more costly because of the damage the ozone layer can cause to our lives. The old air conditioner is also harmful to the ozone layer because of its huge energy consumption. The air conditioner is also in need of frequent cleaning. Based on my experience air conditioner with proper maintenance last longer and save much energy. That is why I keep on monitoring it through the assistance of Las Vegas ac repair. Now I am paying almost only a half of my old bills.

By: Tim H

Tim H — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:42:56 +0000

It appears that short term
It appears that short term economic gain again is overuling the long term benefit to soceity. The cost saving of dry shipping an R22 machine over using an R410a equivalent appears to be externalised in the form of health bills related to the additional exposure to UV radiation and increase in rates of skin cancer.

Following this from the UK I noted a recent guardian article mentioned a recent ozone hole over the artic. The article http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/oct/03/arctic-ozone-layer-hole-expands in the first paragraph states there was no man made link but futher on reasons that CFCs were responsible.

It appears that what the Montreal Protocol was built to save is failing due to a quick dollar and lax enforcement.

By: David Butler

David Butler — Sun, 23 Sep 2012 06:21:52 +0000

Regarding the NY Times
Regarding the NY Times article, AHRI fires back: AHRI press release.

For those who want the short version, skip to the 4th paragraph. Essentially, they lay the blame at the foot of the EPA for not prohibiting the manufacture of R22 equipment. Wonder who lobbied the gov't for that? Methinks the "industry" speaks with more than one voice.

By: Neil Everitt

Neil Everitt — Fri, 14 Sep 2012 02:15:28 +0000

You’re right, it has gone
You’re right, it has gone quiet on this issue – particularly if you are trying to keep an eye on events from here in the UK.

This is a link to a story I wrote just over a year ago, which does mention the companies allegedly involved and quotes the New York Times, so they must have covered it at one time:

http://www.ACR-news.com/news/news.asp?id=2567&title;=%93Loophole%94+hits+US+R22+phase%2Dout+plans

By: Steve M

Steve M — Wed, 12 Sep 2012 00:07:35 +0000

Allison and all,
Allison and all,

I follow the HVAC-R trade magazines and this has been going on since the new regulations took effect. I did not expect that it was a widely unnoticed item in the energy efficiency world.

The cost of changing out a full system to 410A vs just the condenser unit is huge and thus, has spawned a work-around for the replacement industry.

I own apartments and considering the cost of a full new 410A unit with coil and condenser and possibly a complete new line set the difference in cost is incredible if all you really need is a condenser replacement. Think of the other x million apartments in the United States that virtually all have R-22 units installed. The economic impact is incredible to the owner's bottom lines.

Back when the regulations were announced and put in place, I predicted that owners would struggle and some properties fail because of the requirements of the new regulations............until I began to see and understand the Dry-ship workaround.

It is a big problem/issue but it is not new and by no means is it a small amount of units being dry-shipped. The consumer/homeowner market may choose the more expensive, long term solution but rental owners and apartment owners rarely will as it is just simple and VERY clear economics.

My understanding is that the units are shipped with Nitrogen and the nitrogen is evacuated to add the R-22 upon installation.