Comments on: Building Science and the Laws of Thermodynamics, Part Zero https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Sat, 05 Jun 2021 13:01:36 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Michael Anschel https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-13087 Thu, 21 May 2020 13:51:20 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-13087 This motley gang made my
This motley gang made my morning! Thanks for the brilliant read! The article was great, but the comments were golden! Love you guys!

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By: Pierre Brideau https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-13083 Mon, 18 May 2020 12:32:49 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-13083 Great read, thank you.
Great read, thank you.

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By: Joseph K https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-13082 Sun, 17 May 2020 16:37:40 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-13082 Much ado about nothing . . .
Much ado about nothing . . . at least in the name calling. While at GE, we used to say GE stood for ‘good enough.’ One thing I have observed is that ‘engineers’ tend to understand and execute around good enough (at least for an initial prototype) while scientist often hunt for perfection. The world functions off good enough but leaves room for continual improvement. Everyone has a place and, in my various jobs, I’ve found I had to be flexible enough to know which hat to ware according to the expected deliverable. Always liked the zeroth law . . . also the food fight around the dynamic nature of our world.

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By: Justin Fowler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11262 Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:02:20 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11262 First of all because of our
First of all because of our sun, there is no equilibrium. Yes, it is nuclear fusion but the sun will run out eventually and is constantly emanating heat. There can be no equilibrium because of this.
You cannot recapture heat. And of course energy is neither created or destroyed and leads to more entropy ( misnomer if you ask me).
The more we transform building materials, the more entropy (heat) is released.
Whether it’s energy efficient building, Solar electric, Solar thermal, there is no equilibrium unless you can prove that when the life cycle of that product can equal energy saved AND energy used to recycle that product in addition to the sun emanating heat.
Magnets, Solar panels, wood, steel and tile roofs, air conditioners, insulation, windows, etc have a life cycle.
There is no equilibrium and most importantly, how much more entropy is created when recycling?

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By: Clayton DeKorne https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11106 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 21:12:05 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11106 In reply to Jeff Melvin.

Thank you, Jeff. Yes,
Thank you, Jeff. Yes, measurement and calculation is what I am finally seeing it is all about (not philosophical whims and rhetorical fancy).

(I hear you about the CAPTCHA. I’m worried it’s going to break out into finding derivatives and I’m going to have to search my shelves for an old textbook.)

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By: Clayton DeKorne https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11105 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 21:05:32 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11105 In reply to abailes.

I see … I did read Part 1
I see … I did read Part 1 and maybe I was drawn into the reference to Colding and a mechanical equivalent to heat, and thinking “ok, shouldn’t start with a base case of discussing *energy* before we start in on the specifics of one type (thermal)” … but now see from your explanation that as a law specifically applied to thermodynamics, we need to start with a system that allows us to measure that specific kind of energy, and on that basis the order is starting to make more sense … Ok now, forgive my continued exploration, just that the word “energy” (not “heat”) in the first law piqued my attention: Does the first law really apply to all energy – kinetic and potential? … or just all kinetic? (thermal, mechanical, magnetic, etc.)? … or some subest of kinetic only? … I do see the corelations between mechanical and thermal energy, and apperciate your examples of engines and ceiling fans and such. But wondering how far the first law can be extended to evaluate (eg. sniff out scams) in new systems using magnetic or chemical or sound energy. In my position, marketing folks and entrepreneurs throw out all kinds of crazy claims, the verasity of which is mostly easy to identify, but not always … this is the reason for my asking; not sure if it needs to be answered here. Love your articles (and the commments of your community), Allison … always stimulating.

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By: Jeff Melvin https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11104 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:38:23 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11104 In reply to Clayton DeKorne.

Simply: we have already said
Simply: we have already said there is equilibrium between the ice and the cold air in the freezer. Let’s say there is also equilibrium between the ice and the ice tray. The zeroth law tells us that ice tray and the cold air of the freezer are also at equilibrium. They use the same scale to measure the temperature. This one law allows even mere scientists AND engineers to make important calculations.

-Neither a scientist, nor an engineer (and why do the numbers in the CAPTCHA keep going up as I keep commenting on this article?)

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By: abailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11103 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:07:59 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11103 In reply to Clayton DeKorne.

Great question, Clay. The

Great question, Clay. The answer lies in what I wrote about temperature above. The first and second laws lean heavily on temperature. If you read the second article in this series (part 1), you’ll see that I talked about how the technical form of the first law is a relation between work, heat, and internal energy. You can’t quantify heat without a way to measure temperature. The zeroth law basically defines temperature and thermometry.

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By: Clayton DeKorne https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11102 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:51:58 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11102 So why is the zeroth law
So why is the zeroth law “more fundamental” than the first law? Was, or is, this numbering order controversial? It’s not immediately obvious to me why it should precede the first law, which I always think of as a kind of definition of energy’s existential state … and the zeroth law more related to the state (equilibrium) necessary to define prior to describing heat flow (the second law).

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By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/building-science-and-laws-thermodynamics-part-zero/#comment-11098 Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:44:49 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=building-science-and-the-laws-of-thermodynamics-part-zero#comment-11098 In reply to abailes.

I guess that no one else
I guess that no one else wants to take on this question. If you assume that air in a duct is an ideal gas (which is a very good assumption), then the temperature does not change. Conservation of energy says that the fluid enthalpy does not change since there is no energy (heat or work) exchanged with the surroundings, and enthalpy is only a function of temperature, not pressure, for an ideal gas, so the temperature does not change. If you really want to get into the details, if you have a large enough pressure drop in this adiabatic duct, you might get a detectable temperature change, but it will be a decrease, not an increase.

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