Comments on: An Update on the Residential Ventilation Debate https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:13:30 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Albert D Johnson https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11814 Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:13:30 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11814 In reply to abailes.

Have you heard about the
Have you heard about the HOMECHEM project? They are studying indoor air quality rigorously.

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By: Terje Gronas https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11585 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:58:24 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11585 So it would seem to me that
So it would seem to me that there are a lot of guessing going on as there are variables you have a hard time accounting for, like occupants behavior, building materials and so on.
The solution seem pretty obvious to me but maybe I’m missing something. The indoor environment needs to be measured and equipment needs to control accordingly. We have sensors for all the items we are concerned about, we have controllers that we can set limits with, we have equipment that can correct for any of items but I have yet to see any manufacturer tie it all together in one system that just takes care of it.
And with such system in place the standard can focus on what are acceptable limits for whatever we are concerned with (Rh/voc/pm2.5) and the equipment will measure if you hit that target or not. It could easily feed back to a database and it would be a great feedback loop for further development.
If you could also tie in energy use it would really be something….the you would have a pretty fair idea if that HERS score was anywhere near what it promised but I guess that is a discussion for another day…

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By: Brad Cook https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11583 Sun, 22 Jul 2018 20:43:39 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11583 I look at the ASHRE standards
I look at the ASHRE standards as the capacity of ventilation that should be installed. The standards (and codes) are written to try and create a relatively simple standard to follow that will cover all situations. That approach never works well because there are always exceptions. The ventilation standards do not take into account such factors as how many people are actually living in the house? How many dogs and how many cats (or other pets) live in the house? How many and what type of plants are in the house? What other activities are conducted in the house? All of these can affect indoor air quality. Occupant education is just as important as properly installed ventilation, at least until very smart controls are developed that will adjust ventilation and dehumidification according to temperatures, dew points, CO2 levels, VOCs and particulates. I do explain dew point to my clients, but I also explain that when a “chunk” of air is heated up, the air volume expands because the molecules have more energy (think of a balloon as it is warmed up), but the same number of water molecules, so the RH goes down. As that chunk of air is cooled down, the opposite happens. The volume shrinks and the RH goes up. Some people will never get it, but most at least understand the basic concept.
I am all for spot ventilation- remove the pollutant before it gets diluted and takes more ventilation to get rid of it. For the shower, I have been told that the “condensation sensor” module that can be used with Panasonic’s Whisper Green Select bath fans, does take into account the dew point when operating the fan.
Several years ago I had a client complain that there was something wrong with their gas clothes dryer because every now and then the clothes came out dry but smelling almost burnt. I concluded that when her husband used an oil based polyurethane on shelving that he was finishing in the basement, the VOCs were being combusted in the dryer above, and I advised installing an exhaust fan and hood for her husband’s hobby. Spot ventilation!

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By: David Butler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11514 Thu, 05 Jul 2018 22:44:18 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11514 In reply to Trey Farmer.

@Trey, you may not need MUA
@Trey, you may not need MUA for bath fans (you’ll need to test for that), but conventional clothes dryers typically pull > 200 CFM, so you’ll need to tie that to the damper control (or use a barometric damper).

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By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11510 Thu, 05 Jul 2018 14:51:36 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11510 In reply to David Butler.

Here is another issue with
Here is another issue with exhaust fan depressurization in tight homes. Drain traps. In a previous job, we built some research houses that were quite tight. We put in quiet, high-performance bathroom exhaust fans. They were so quiet that they often got left on. Whenever that happened, I noticed sewer gas smells. The house was unoccupied, so I had to keep adding water to the drains to keep the traps full, but I would still get that sewer smell when the bath fan was left running. I finally figured out that it was coming from a floor drain in the mechanical room. Pouring water in it did not help, so I contacted the plumber and he admitted that he did not install a trap on that drain, since these types of drains are rarely used so would likely be dry. He was intending to put a rubber “dry trap” (one-way check valve) in that drain, but he forgot it when he trimmed out the house. He came back and installed it and the problem went away. The moral of the story is that drains can be your source of make-up air if you are not careful. The second moral of the story is that there may be an advantage to having noisy bathroom exhaust fans.

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By: Trey Farmer https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11507 Wed, 04 Jul 2018 23:00:38 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11507 In reply to David Butler.

@David, we will have a make
@David, we will have a make up air duct with a motorized damper and a current sensing relay that is connected to the kitchen vent hood. Im not sure if we could connect that same damper to the bathroom vent hoods as well or exactly how that would work but will have to look into it. I agree that we would want some sort of make up air if we do have bath exhaust fans.

I’m still not convinced that we need the bath fans/additional make-up air since we will be exhausting continuously from the bathrooms anyway with the ERV. Without them we might have occasional positive enthalpy exchange (which would be taken care of by the dehu) but with them we would have added loads from the make-up air.

Thanks for your feedback on this, BTW, much appreciated 🙂

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By: David Butler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11501 Wed, 04 Jul 2018 02:34:30 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11501 In reply to David Butler.

@Trey, since you mentioned
@Trey, since you mentioned yours is a ‘Passive House’ project (e.g., super tight), you’ll almost certainly need a makeup air source, mostly for the range hood. A single makeup vent will serve kitchen, baths and laundry. Ideally it should be barometric, meaning that it won’t open until the house reaches a negative 4 or 5 Pascals, thus avoiding becoming a source of infiltration. (If someone knows who makes one of these, please post here. The one I used to specify is no longer produced.)

In general, there are two arguments for makeup air: a) a makeup air vent allows for filtration rather, otherwise it’s pulled in though building cavities (or worse, the garage); and (b) it’s important to avoid negative pressure in hot-humid climates, as that could cause condensation on the back side of drywall, especially where supply diffusers are directed toward the wall (a bad idea in any case).

It’s easy to test whether makeup air is needed once the house is fully sealed. I’m not sure what Passive House requires along those lines but I recommend zonal pressure diagnostics for all homes, especially super tight homes. If a enclosure is leaky enough to not require makeup air (range hood + clothes dryer + bath fan don’t pull a negative 5 Pascals), then a makeup air vent won’t fix what’s already broken!

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By: Trey Farmer https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11497 Tue, 03 Jul 2018 15:50:45 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11497 In reply to David Butler.

Thanks David. In that case,
Thanks David. In that case, would you recommend a bathfan with a timer hooked up to a make-up air system, or do you think that the temporary depressurization is not an issue?

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By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11495 Tue, 03 Jul 2018 15:14:48 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11495 In reply to Debbie Olmstead.

Debbie, the whole-house
Debbie, the whole-house ventilation requirements are not based on cooking or gas combustion processes. They are primarily based on occupant and building material contaminant sources. There are separate exhaust ventilation requirements for cooking, regardless of whether it is gas or electric. I commend you for building your “super tight” house without any combustion appliances, but research shows that cooking with electric also generates significant contaminant levels, especially with electric ranges with high temperature heating elements. If you want to really minimize your exposure from cooking, you might consider the newer induction cooktops, but Std. 62.2 still requires exhaust ventilation due to the other food-generated contaminants. I guess the bottom line is that it is OK to eat that stuff, just don’t inhale it.

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By: Debbie Olmstead https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/update-residential-ventilation-debate/#comment-11485 Mon, 02 Jul 2018 23:09:51 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=an-update-on-the-residential-ventilation-debate#comment-11485 I’m building a new home in
I’m building a new home in the lower desert in Arizona. No gas products. All electric. Is this ventilation even something I have to worry about? Seems to me to not make sense to make the house supertight, then bring in outside air when I will have zero gas and zero LP appliances.

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