Comments on: Unvented Gas Appliance Industry Falls Flat at ASHRAE Meeting https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Sun, 27 Jun 2021 23:48:26 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Lance O'Hearn https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-10115 Mon, 18 Apr 2016 16:54:04 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-10115 Paul,
Paul,
In the unlikely event that an over-sized vent-free unit was operating continuously in a sealed room and all of the oxygen was consumed the CO2 would be enough to kill you as the human body can’t live with just CO2. More importantly, all vent-free are required to be equipped with ODS (oxygen depletion systems) which are integral to the pilot and designed to shut down the pilot (therefore the unit) if the oxygen levels fall below 18%. Please don’t misinterpret this statement as an endorsement of vent-free appliances I have been fighting against them since about 1994. The ODS pilots are not very accurate and I have tested them under lab conditons down to as low as 14% of oxygen, and at that point the main burner is lifting, floating, ghosting and CO levels begin to go off the charts at thousands of parts per million. Levels that could render you unconscious and dead within a few hours or even minutes of continuous exposure.

Last I should point out to you that 35 ppm might give you a headache but the CO detectors they sell on the market today can not detect CO levels accurately below 70 ppm. Read the fine print on the instructions that come with them. That is the threshold that UL tests them to. Any device that can accurately read less than 70 ppm would be lab quality and cost thousands.

Best to simply steer clear of these products and only use vented gas heaters/fireplaces.

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By: Allison Bailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-10114 Mon, 11 Apr 2016 20:04:02 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-10114 Lance, in this article I was
Lance, in this article I was reporting on the discussions at the ASHRAE 62.2 committee meeting, not attempting to write a comprehensive article about combustion appliances. I’ve written several articles over the years on the problems with unvented combustion appliances as well as atmospherically-vented (especially natural draft) combustion appliances. I agree with you. Unvented combustion doesn’t belong in buildings. Natural draft doesn’t belong in buildings. If you’re going to use combustion, it should either sealed combustion or outside the building enclosure. (And if it’s outside the building enclosure, it should be a water heater because heating & cooling equipment needs to be inside.)

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By: Lance O'Hearn https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-10113 Mon, 11 Apr 2016 19:53:01 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-10113 In reply to John Proctor.

I wonder why it is that you
I wonder why it is that you don’t also mention the various more serious products of combustion which result from a cold start. It is well documented by AGAR, Warnock Hersey, CSA International and any other accredited test organization that during the first 15 to 30 minutes of from start up most gas appliances, including vent-free emit unacceptable levels of carbon monoxide, soot and traces of raw methane. Air quality in a given home can diminish dramatically depending upon the number of on/off cycles the appliance goes through and the length of each on cycle. This is particularly true of vent-free gas logs in which the flames are impinging on the artificial log, the surface of which is initially cool and therefore not conducive to the cleaner combustion we find as the appliance reaches steady state. These are the very reasons that the committees who wrote the standards allow 15 minutes of normal operation before taking a combustion sample two more minutes before testing in over-fire conditions and two more minutes before testing at reduced supply pressure. I’ve been involved in numerous cases surrounding soot damaged homes and people complaining of health issues regarding their vent-free gas fireplaces. Forget the Rinnai or other ceramic plaque style heaters on the markets. Those low BTU wall mounted supplementary heaters are not the major issue, it is the 30 to 40 MBH simulated fireplaces on both natural gas and propane that are of greatest danger to the unsuspecting consumers.

Regards.

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By: Lance O'Hearn https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-10112 Mon, 11 Apr 2016 18:45:43 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-10112 In reply to terry nordbye.

Terry is most certainly
Terry is most certainly referring to carbon monoxide (C)) readings. A vent-free heater will generate 10 to 13% Carbon Dioxide (CO2) water vapour and nitrogen dioxide (NO2). There are always going to be traces of methane and CO particularly on a cold start as the heater requires up to 15 minutes to reach equilibrium and it’s optimum combustion state. I’ve been writing about this stuff since the AGA Research Division first published their dubious report in 1996 which was also paid for by the Vent Free Gas Products Alliance.

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By: Roy Collver https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-9176 Thu, 28 Jan 2016 06:02:56 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-9176 In reply to Allison Bailes.

Allison – you are right re.
Allison – you are right re. CO2 readings, they should be higher. So now about CO.
Even if you get an acceptable CO reading – how confident are you about the accuracy of your CO tester? How can you be sure the appliance combustion will not go sideways? (many reasons for this – I will write an article about this soon). The whole idea of gas-fired, unvented appliances is just plain loco. Do you feel lucky?

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By: Paul Gillespie https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-9199 Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:36:10 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-9199 The biggest concern I have
The biggest concern I have about flue less is the eventuality of the space filling up with CO 2 then when it is used over again for the combustion air and it is broke down into CO in an enclosed structure! A deadly concern! Any thing over 35 parts per million should be evacuated!

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By: John Proctor https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-9198 Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:33:51 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-9198 In reply to Mel Lewis.

Mel Some people are affected
Mel Some people are affected more than others on a level they notice. However, just because your wife doesn’t notice the results, her body does. Get rid of the monster even if you have to go to electric heaters.

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By: George https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-9194 Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:57:13 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-9194 In reply to Jeff Souther.

Ooooops, my bad…. When it
Ooooops, my bad…. When it comes to plumbing and gas, MA can really go out the window, jmo.
Total review in MA of all Codes starts later this year, so we see what 2018 brings.

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By: Mel Lewis https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-9197 Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:15:14 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-9197 We have an office in our home
We have an office in our home (former garage now tightly finished) that is partially heated with a ventless gas heater. I have noticed lately that my memory is not as good sometimes as it is other times. Also headaches. Could these be caused by the heater? My wife is in the office more than me but doesn’t seem to be bothered.

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By: Jeff Souther https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting/#comment-9193 Tue, 26 Jan 2016 07:10:58 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=unvented-gas-appliance-industry-falls-flat-at-ashrae-meeting#comment-9193 In reply to George Lanthier.

George, unfortunately
George, unfortunately unvented products are alive and well in the good old Commonwealth of Massachusetts since 2004. I try to talk consumers out of it on a daily basis and glad it’s not a product of that is sold in my showroom. But competitors all around sell them.

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