Comments on: R-Value vs. Thermal Resistance https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:40:58 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24408 Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:40:58 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24408 In reply to Curt Kinder.

Hi Curt:
I am not a fan of indoor temperature swings so I don’t have much use for internal thermal capacitance. This is just personal comfort preference.

Since I can’t stop outdoor temperatures swings, I am OK with thermal capacitance in the outdoor building layers, especially brick exteriors. Flattening the diurnal heating or cooling load on a building is generally a good thing. Keep in mind that this load dampening is not only a function of the thermal capacitance of the building material. When you do the detailed transient heat conduction analysis, the dampening effect is a function of the thermal resistance times the thermal capacitance. This becomes evident when you look at the units of thermal RxC which is F-h/Btu multiplied by Btu/F which gives units of time (hours). So increasing the thermal resistance of the building envelope also helps it dampen diurnal load profiles. In addition, increased thermal resistance also reduces overall (average) heat loads whereas thermal capacitance does not. So I am making the case that increased thermal resistance always helps with thermal loads whereas increased thermal capacitance only has limited benefits.

The real reason that I like brick exteriors is that I don’t have to paint it in the future, although for some strange reason around here, people are painting brick, even on new homes. I don’t get it.

]]>
By: Curt Kinder https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24395 Sun, 20 Mar 2022 15:57:44 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24395 In reply to Dennis Kavanaugh.

Actually, I think what you get in the NFRC label for windows and doors are in fact “Assembly” figures – they incorporate the frame, mullions, muntins, etc.

]]>
By: Curt Kinder https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24334 Sun, 20 Mar 2022 02:40:37 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24334 Roy – you make an interesting point, but I’d like to add some comments having lived in both heating and cooling dominated climates about roles of thermal mass

1) In a heating dominated climate, it can be acceptable, even desirable for a thermal mass within the envelope be intermittently heated, such as by sun or a woodstove or similar, and then release its heat late at night when outdoor temps are at their lowest. Proponents of this approach may be satisfied by the central core / daytime use rooms of a home being kept warmer by thermal mass while outlying bedrooms are allowed to get a bit cooler – curl up with each other or extra blamkets.

2) In a cooling dominated climate, I personally enjoyed an ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) home – that variant puts the thermal mass in the middle – split between two layers of insulation. The benefit of thermal mass in a hot humid climate is in the delay of solar gain – the hot afternoon peak is reduced. There is also benefit in the thermal mass releasing some heat into the home well after dark – that delayed sensible gain “gives the HVAC system something to do” well after dark; indeed all night long. In other words, the slow release of some stored heat into the home all night long causes the HVAC to operate, at least intermittently, all night long. This improves comfort by reducing humidity since conventional HVAC systems manage latent gain only indirectly, in other words only when there is some sensible heat gain to activate the system thermostat.

A conventional light frame home won’t carry enough sensible heat long enough into the dead of a hot muggy night to create enough load for the HVAC to manage humidity.

]]>
By: Dennis Kavanaugh https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24217 Sat, 19 Mar 2022 01:40:15 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24217 In reply to Curt Kinder.

Thanks. I have only seen U-factors for Windows, but not assemblies. Have you found such a thing? For example, if I have R-48 SIP walls (no transfer) and Pella triple pane windows, can I get close to an assembly U-factor? I suppose you have to add in raised floor, underfloor insulation and a number of other things, but at this point I am so far away I can’t find much use for it.

]]>
By: RoyC https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24159 Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:57:33 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24159 The ability to “retain” heat is thermal capacitance (some call it thermal mass) which is a different property than thermal resistance. Its impact is much more difficult to predict because it depends on where those materials are located in the wall assembly and how the indoor and outdoor temperatures vary with time. The ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals is a good reference if you want to learn more about it.

Some say that you want high thermal capacitance on the indoor air side of the envelope. I disagree. To get enough indoor air temperature variation for this capacitance to have an impact, you would probably be uncomfortable. It should be on the outdoor air side of the envelope (e.g., brick or concrete block) to dampen the impact of outdoor air temperature and solar heat gain fluctuations.

]]>
By: Deniz Erkan https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24120 Fri, 18 Mar 2022 04:33:17 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24120 I have long wondered about the relationship of a material resisting the heat transfer vs retaining the heat itself. In a cooling situation , it seems advantageous that my wall assembly not let the outside heat transfer into my house quickly, but that same night I don’t want the heat my wall assembly absorbed during the day to radiate into my house either. So in a way I am looking for the total effect of the insulation over a 24 hour period.

If anyone can point me to the math on this I would appreciate it. Otherwise I might cover my house inside and out in tin foil with a 2 inch air gap.

]]>
By: Curt Kinder https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-24008 Thu, 17 Mar 2022 02:30:58 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-24008 That’s my point in the post immediately above – Assembly U-factors give us the info we need to assess, calculate, and model real world performance of actual buildings.

]]>
By: Dennis Kavanaugh https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-23965 Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:01:25 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-23965 I enjoy articles like this, but at the end of the day I find myself asking “so what questions need to be asked and answered so that the rest of us can make use of it?”. In the case of residential housing, I am interested in the effect of the ‘assembly’ on heat retention, and a comparison of various materials, methods or such that make it better or worse. I suppose one might say that is the role of engineers, but there ought to be some easier way to take, for example, 6 common building methods and materials and tell all of us how well it retains heat.

]]>
By: Curt Kinder https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-23893 Wed, 16 Mar 2022 02:02:45 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-23893 I think what you are getting at is U-Factor, the reciprocal of R-Value. U-Factor is usable for all assemblies, even those not tested for R-Value, such as foam backed shag carpet.

]]>
By: Richard Melius https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/r-value-vs-thermal-resistance/#comment-23888 Wed, 16 Mar 2022 01:02:59 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=7257#comment-23888 Thanks for the technical definition of R-value vs thermal resistance. My comment is actually related to your article: I am familiar with the terms and have read the method instructions for determining R-value (about 35 years ago). My question is a bit farther reaching as regards to the thermal resistance of wood; specifically logs. I have tried to read and understand much of “The Wood Handbook” written and published by the US Forest Service. I am particularly interested in the chapters on drying wood and the meanings of the terms “Green”, “Air Dried” with an emphasis on “Kiln-Dried”. I use only Fully Kiln Dried EWP (as determined by the procedures in “The Wood Handbook”) when building a log home. (I prefer to build using Metal SIPs with log siding). All of this is leading to the question or observation that many in the industry claim “8” log walls are equivalent to a 6″ fiberglass insulated stud wall in performance due to Thermal Mass” (without regard to the moisture % at the center of a log). The biggest problem I have experienced is the term “Kiln-Dried” is VERY loosely used and there is NO governing authority to require testing to claim the term “Kiln-Dried” like the testing that was required to establish the R-value Rule because of so much abuse of the term and false claims. When is a governing authority going to require proper testing for a log supplier to perform testing as described in “The Wood Handbook”? Dr. Bailes and All readers: Please feel free to tear my comments apart or give good observations or explain who I can write to in order to explain my experience and dismay that there aren’t any regulations re: the above. (I am looking forward to receiving my copy of your new book!)

]]>