Comments on: We Need Higher Ventilation Rates. But How High? https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Thu, 08 Dec 2022 17:48:21 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Cindi https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-32396 Thu, 08 Dec 2022 17:48:21 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-32396 In reply to Michael Joseph Ballezza.

Thanks, I didn’t know there were different kinds. Did some quick googling and it’s not easy to tell what tech they are. Can you list a couple of examples of ones with acoustic CO2? I tried a veris since you mentioned it and it was Dual beam on-dispersive infrared (NDIR), diffusion sampling.

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By: Michael Joseph Ballezza https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-32392 Thu, 08 Dec 2022 01:45:29 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-32392 In reply to Allison Bailes.

I would strongly recommend using the acoustic CO2 sensors. A sealed house with natural materials can have low VOC, not feel stale, but still have high CO2. Cheaper CO2 meters will use VOC levels as a proxy for lack of outside air, or use FLIR and are erratic and super sensitive. I was working on CO2 mitigation at work, and had picked up one of those new acoustic chip CO2 meters to meet some stringent certification code, decided to try it out at home and was shocked. Calibrated at work with a known 750 ppm source, was reading 1090 to 1200 in bedrooms. I had taken so much care to seal and insulate, I had robbed myself of any fresh air in the winter. I am installing a standalone ventilator and exhaust, HRU, and a 1.5 KW variable output in-duct heater. I have a veris CO2 in duct meter to go into the exhaust. It’s 0-10 VDC output will turn on a RIB sequencing relay to start fans, heat will control to a base 65F discharge temp if needed after HRU coil. I am using a pair of variable speed AC infinity fans to balance out 80CFM of outside air, 20 CFM per occupant, and will trim it slightly positively pressured to maintain that zero infiltration. The Veris and RIB should keep it +/- 50 on 500PPM. Filters on supply and exhaust to keep the coils clean.

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By: Cindi https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16462 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:01:22 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16462 There’s more to the story than just CO2 though. There’s humidity and condensation. And basic outgassing of chemicals. Those were a significant part of why I wanted whole house ventilation, so I didn’t have to worry so much about what was brought into the house, and to ensure there is no condensation with a very tight house. Admittedly with no people in the house you will be generating less humidity, and a humidity measurement could be used along with the CO2. But I’d still want some air flow when not home to keep ubiquitous chemicals from building up.

I would love to monitor it when I’m away for 1-2 months, but I still don’t think I’d turn it all the way off.

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By: Kurt t Johnson https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16407 Tue, 17 Aug 2021 19:05:49 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16407 Hi Allison,
I’ve been suggesting higher rates for sometime now. I’ve been suggesting to my customers that based on performance and absentee rates both in schools and in the work place that they should consider a system that can run on low to meet .35 ach and on high up to 1 ACH. It is interesting to note that John Billings, father of the ASHVE standard, thought that 60 cfm per person was a rate to consider if one wanted to be healthy. He thought that not less than 30 cfm p/person would be minimum. That’s back in 1893. Yet in the industry I’ve just gotten tired of arguing with the engineers that too much ventilation is bad. Figured when we got enough dead people that things would start to change. Maybe, just maybe, we have enough dead people now. To answer the question said in large meetings “Where are all the dead people?”, well, we bury them Joe, so we don’t hear from them. Those costs are priceless…. 🙁

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By: Stephen Downs https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16302 Wed, 11 Aug 2021 04:31:59 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16302 Hi Allison,
Just wondering if you have a make and model of the type of Ultra Aire controller that you display at the top of the of this article.

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By: Deniz Erkan https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16197 Tue, 03 Aug 2021 19:50:11 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16197 About “smart” ventilation…

Another article about BSC-001 summarizes: “6. There’s no provision for ventilation based on sensors of CO2, relative humidity, or any other indoor air components.”

In BSC info sheet 001, I saw: “..Performance Criteria stipulates that the 62.2 ventilation flow rate be delivered at least one-third of the time and that whole-house distribution is required. ”

Are there known arguments AGAINST smart ventilation? Perhaps related to unintended consequences, sensor reliability, or practicalities of getting them implemented correctly?

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By: David Butler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16196 Tue, 03 Aug 2021 19:44:28 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16196 In reply to David Butler.

Allison wrote:
> In smaller houses or apartments with several people, ventilation is more important because there’s less total air in the house and a higher density of pollutants.

Absolutely. And when the time comes to sell my home, I intend to discuss ventilation options with the buyer, and it will be covered in my yet-to-be written House Operation Manual (shouldn’t every house have one?). My point was not that ventilation is never necessary, but simply that I remain in Joe’s camp in terms of degree.

More than that, I agree with Todd’s point… that we need smart ventilation that can react to conditions, e.g., C02 at a minimum. Designing 24/7 ventilation to address the worst possible occupancy or contaminant scenarios works against all the work we’ve done to reduce the energy loads and address HVAC oversizing.

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By: John Mattson https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16193 Tue, 03 Aug 2021 15:59:52 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16193 Todd Collins is right on the mark. Thanks to Allison I got an Awair monitor and found that CO2 in our bedroom would go from 600 to 1600 overnight. I may have done too good a job sealing my 1903 Victorian. Now, if I could control ventilation with my Awair I might fix this. Now my option is endless manual control. Progress is partly the number of things you do not have to think about

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By: Todd Collins https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16185 Tue, 03 Aug 2021 14:14:32 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16185 What I am seeing in the comments but also relevant to the writeup is that ventilation needs to be “smarter”. For example, some ventilation systems have the ability to measure CO2, VOC’s and humidity … and then leverage the sensor readings to drive ventilation rates (volume). Running a ventilation system all the time, e.g. in the winter, or on a set schedule of x minutes per hour, etc. can be and often is a real waste of energy. For example, if everyone living at the house have left the home (work, school, errands, vacations, etc), ventilation is not necessary as the sensor readings are likely going to be lower than a set threshold or when ventilation is needed. “Smart” ventilation leverages the sensor readings to tell the ventilation system to bring in fresh air only when fresh air is needed and not all the time. Think about schools … the CO2 in a classroom can skyrocket when kids are in class lowering the cognition capability of the children within the classroom. However, the classroom is only occupied for 7ish hours a day. Smart ventilation will clear out the CO2 when it is needed and not 24/7. All manufacturers need to consider how they are going to solve this problem with smart sensors. There are already companies that have this capability to include BuildEquinox in IL.

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By: Allison Bailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/we-need-higher-ventilation-rates-but-how-high/#comment-16182 Tue, 03 Aug 2021 12:04:10 +0000 https://www.energyvanguard.com/?p=6257#comment-16182 In reply to David Butler.

David, yes, COVID-19 is definitely a big part of the reason for my change of position on ventilation rates. But it’s not just that because high-MERV filtration can remove a lot of the virus-laden particles. Since I’ve started watching CO2 rates, I’ve realized how difficult it is to get air changes in a house. Even leaky houses don’t do it well because you’re relying a lot on wind and stack effect.

Yeah, the need for ventilation varies with the situation. Two people in a large house don’t need much, as is the case in your house. But what if you have a dinner party? Or sell the house to a family of 6? In smaller houses or apartments with several people, ventilation is more important because there’s less total air in the house and a higher density of pollutants.

Regarding the accuracy of CO2 monitors, yeah, they’re not laboratory-grade instruments. But it’s easy to check and calibrate them by taking them outdoors. If you leave it outdoors for a while and it’s reading 600 ppm, that’s not good. If it’s close to 400 ppm, it’s OK.

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