Comments on: Duct Design 3 — Total Effective Length https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/ Building science knowledge, HVAC design, & fun Wed, 17 Mar 2021 20:58:39 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Ross https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-13231 Fri, 03 Jul 2020 18:45:25 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-13231 I read this post with great
I read this post with great interest Allison! Do you know of places where you can buy duct elbows with a radius of 1.5? The only places I’ve turned up so far seem to be more geared towards dust collection setups for shops (i.e. oneida-air.com and thesheetmetalkid.com), but I guess a duct is a duct at the end of the day, just seems odd the hvac supplies I’ve searched so far haven’t had anything like this.

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By: Aaron Fried https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-13118 Thu, 04 Jun 2020 00:33:57 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-13118 Thanks for the primer on duct
Thanks for the primer on duct design! I am a novice about this subject and am living in an apartment with a very noisy intake grill in the door to a closet housing my HVAC blower. I think it is the air flow that is noisy, not the grill itself. Please say yea or neigh to what I plan to try to fix this problem: Install a 4 ft long rectangular partial enclosure (made with 1″ aluminum-covered foam insulation board) with end-openings the same area as the grill intake. The opposite end would take in room air 90 degrees to the original opening. Do you think this would compromise the safe air flow of my central air system? And Why or why not? Thanks in advance.

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By: RenZ https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-11592 Wed, 01 Aug 2018 03:15:05 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-11592 The total effective length
The total effective length (TEL) is the sum of all those fitting effective lengths plus the lengths of straight duct. If you’re doing it by hand, you have to go through the process for every single duct run. Then you choose the one that has the greatest total effective length. You do NOT use the sum of all the ducts and fittings. Is the computation for TEL is based on layout sir? . I cant find the length u used. Thanks for this article i learned soo much

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By: abailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10567 Tue, 30 May 2017 18:49:49 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10567 In reply to David Butler.

Thanks for this important

Thanks for this important caveat, David. It’s worth its own article so I’ll add that to the list of articles in this series.

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By: abailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10566 Tue, 30 May 2017 18:45:52 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10566 In reply to Steve Waclo.

Great question, Steve. That

Great question, Steve. That extension is there for very good reason. Yes, you could put an elbow there for the last takeoff, but it’s generally better for static pressure in the trunkline not to do that. And you don’t want to have the last takeoff right there at the end so you extend the trunk 6″ or so beyond the last takeoff. When air hits the end of the duct, it creates turbulence and you want to take the air off into the last branch before it hits the turbulence.

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By: abailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10565 Tue, 30 May 2017 18:41:28 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10565 In reply to Steve Waclo.

Good questions, Steve. I’d

Good questions, Steve. I’d have to go back and see exactly which design that was from to know if it’s been installed or not. Sorry. I don’t recall. Also, the photo, duct schematic, and effective length table all are from different homes, and the photo isn’t from one that we designed. In the last article, Mark Johnson made the reasonable request for a case study so once I get through the basic principles here, I’ll do that.

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By: David Butler https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10564 Tue, 30 May 2017 18:36:37 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10564 from the article… “Fittings
from the article… “Fittings dominate when it comes to using up the available static pressure, so you have to choose them carefully”

Absolutely true. However, most designers miss an important step when considering equivalent lengths of fittings (junctions, elbows, boots, etc). The values given in the Manual D Appendix 3 tables assume a velocity of 900 FPM and a friction rate of 0.08 IWC (700 / 0.08 for return fittings). However, this ignores the fact that fitting EL’s vary dramatically with velocity, and even if ducts are designed around those values (unnecessary and often a bad idea), velocities and friction rates will necessarily vary throughout the system, so you’re guaranteed to have the wrong EL’s in some or most cases.

Prior to 3rd Edition of Manual D, no one seemed concerned about this simplification. As long as you don’t exceed 900 FPM, the table EL’s are conservative.

In 2008, ACCA issued Technical Bulletin 2008-04, which goes into depth explaining what happens in a duct system when velocity is low, and why Manual D doesn’t stipulate minimum velocities (see my comment in part 2 of this series). This bulletin became Appendix 15 in the latest (3rd) edition of Manual D. Also found in 3rd edition is Appendix 4 “Fitting Equivalent Length Adjustments” (for when velocity and/or friction rate is lower than assumed for the Appendix 3 tables).

HVAC systems designed for homes built to current energy codes are likely to operate at significantly lower than 900 FPM, and as ECM blowers have become much more common, it’s even more important to adjust fitting EL’s for actual velocities as per Appendix 4. Unfortunately, popular duct design software** doesn’t implement these adjustments (although it would be rather trivial to do so). Sigh.

** I haven’t checked this is a while. I trust someone will correct me if any duct design software has implemented these adjustments.

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By: Steve Waclo https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10563 Tue, 30 May 2017 18:25:48 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10563 Oops, one more query.
Oops, one more query.

I notice the main horizontal run in the layout ends not in 90* elbows, that with turning vanes would seem to be a better option, but at a termination that provides a short duct extension preceeded by a Tee.

What’s up with that?

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By: Steve Waclo https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10562 Tue, 30 May 2017 18:18:53 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10562 Another informative article,
Another informative article, this time on a subject so fundamental, one would think there is little more to be said…but not in the hands of Allison Bailes!

You state the layout drawing above is “one we have done recently” and I must ask, are you referring to the drawing or has this system been installed and commissioned? I’m asking because it would be informative to know the outcome of your efforts, seeing no balancing dampers in the drawing. Optimistic, are we? 🙂

Overheard recently on NPR: A pessimist says “Things can’t possibly get worse.” An optimist says, “Yes they can!”

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By: abailes https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/duct-design-3-total-effective-length/#comment-10561 Tue, 30 May 2017 17:38:21 +0000 http://energyvanguard.flywheelsites.com/?blog_post=duct-design-3-total-effective-length#comment-10561 In reply to Carl Robins Jr.

Thanks, Carl! We’ve done a

Thanks, Carl! We’ve done a few WaterFurnace designs.

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